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This is research for the real world. Conversations with researchers about the paths they've taken to shape our everyday lives.

This is research for the real world. Hello. I'm Benjamin Abrams, a lecturer in sociology at the IOE.

In this season of research for the real world, we're talking about the sustainability of higher education and how rigorous research can help shape policy and improve the sector. Today, I'm delighted to have Henned Ali and doctor Heather Roth who are here to talk about their research on public attitudes to international students. Hend Ali is an economic and social research council doctoral fellow and a PhD candidate at IOE. She is currently the editorial assistant of the Migration and Society Journal published by Boghahn. Beyond academia, Hands has held various positions within international development, including working for the United Nations.

Doctor Heather Rolfe is the director of research and relationships at British Future, a UK based think tank that aims to advance public knowledge of equality and diversity, human rights, racial and cultural harmony, citizenship, and social inclusion. Welcome, Hen and Heather, to the podcast.

Thank you.

Hi. Thank you.

So let's begin with a question for Hens. So, Hens, your research often focuses on migration and public attitudes. What initially drew you to this field, and how has your perspective evolved over time?

So in my research, I'm generally interested in centering people's perspectives and understanding their experiences. And, I have been doing that through two methods, one which I use more often, which I rely on for my doctoral research and its ethnographic methods. So what I'm going to be doing in my doctoral research is to understand how people experience and navigate the legal statuses in their everyday life, focusing on two specific neighborhoods where I'm going to live and try to talk to people to as diverse people as I can just to understand how the how the legal statuses, which are organized nationally but then implemented locally, are being experienced by people at their work when they're claiming rights like housing, for instance, but also in the most mundane activities like going shopping and commuting to work. And I think that helps us to consider people as experts of everyday lived experiences, and I think this is very important and should count when we develop any policies in general. And the other method which I used while working with British Future is understanding public attitudes.

And we focused on public attitudes on international students. It gives a very different perspective on understanding what people think about specific issue. For this research, we used mixed methods. So we did polling, and it's quantitative method where we try to involve representative sample. And we also did focus groups.

It's qualitative method which allows us to dig deeper on and understand the rationales and motivations of people. And, we did that in six locations across England, Scotland, and Wales. And I think it's during the time of polarization, this research was partially done and written during the last elections. And I think providing evidence based research during time like that is very important and aimed to inform the new government in very important areas such as migration levels, university funding, skills and labor market policies, and so on. So, generally, the motivation of my research is to center people's perspective, and I think that's very important to have better and more just policies, but also more sustainable policy.

So if you read the report, for instance, you would which we will talk about in more detail later, you will find that people are actually less polarized on a lot of issues than, what politicians actually believe.

Great. And just to follow-up on that, I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about maybe how your views have changed from when you started research on this to where they are now.

Well, this, like and as an international student, I have been witnessing the uncertainties international students have been going through, the period after we finish our studies, how long we would be able to stay, if there are going to be good opportunities, jobs, and so on, how that unfold in in reality. But, also, can we have our family? Some of us would love to have their families because they stay in The UK for a long period to study and then work. And so all these uncertainties and sometimes, like, very strong public discourse which make us feel a bit unwanted. I think it was an amazing timing and opportunity to to join this research to also it helped me because in the research, they dig a bit deeper than these harsh statements, which, like, if you ask people, what do you think about migration?

You're not going to get a very pleasant answer. But once you dig deeper, you understand the rationales of people, you understand their motivations, and then you also get to the humane side of things, what people are concerned about. And some of these concerns are are are valid. No? Like, we are all humans.

We have our fears and worries and so on. So it was very important for me to understand this and see it on the other side. But I also generally think that I have amazing opportunity coming here and studying and developing my skills and opportunity meeting a lot of impressive people and exchanging knowledge with them. I also like being one of international students and observing them. I see that they have really valuable contribution to the educational system here and to the British economy as well.

So the way I look at education in The UK is an asset, and I think it should be approached as such. So, like, doing this internship just, like, reminded me of how valuable the opportunity I have and that there is a humane side to everything even when, when it sounds very, very harsh.

Fascinating. Yeah. That that brings me really neatly to to my next question, which was, as an international student yourself, how do you see the relationship between public perception and policymaking around international students?

I would say it has evolved through this research. It it was a good reminder for a lot of things, which I I have already thought I know, but it was good to encounter. And during time of polarization, it's interesting to see how actually some people think things which contradicts the general direction of policymakers. So for instance, when we talk to people, people during this research, people actually want international students to stay longer after they some of them want international students to stay permanently to be able to pay back to the British economy and British societies through their work, especially in in specific fields like care and health. And that was surprising because if you read the news, if you hear politicians, that will not be your conclusion.

But, like, it felt like it's commonly believed thing among people we talk to. So, yeah, it it it was just good reminder of how important public attitudes are and understanding them Even if sometimes they give you a result which you don't really want, maybe they just confirm the polarization. But you still get to understand the logic and the rationale and the concerns. For instance, one of the big concerns is the pressure international students put on housing. But then this is manageable.

If you work with universities and the universities understand better and put it in their recruitment strategy how not to put pressure on the local areas where they are located, And in the meantime, the government understand that, and then we get to a better and more sustainable financing system than the current one, then this specific concern is addressed. And then it doesn't become we don't want international students. No. We think that there are some concerns which are valid connected to international students, and let's address them.

Great. And so tell me, how did you get involved with British Future and this report looking at public attitudes towards international students? What's the story behind this?

So as you mentioned earlier, I'm ESRC doctoral fellow, and this internship opportunity was advertised as a cooperation between UBEL. It's short for the UCL Bloomsbury and East London doctoral training partnership and British future. And it aimed to develop student skills, work experiences, and give them the opportunity to expand their networks, but also ex explore research opportunities beyond academia. But I think it's also good opportunity for the SEC to get, like, talented and experienced researchers. So I think it was a great idea when I saw it, and I was actually encouraged by my supervisors to apply.

They supported me a lot. And I got selected, and they really enjoyed my time there. It's, like, fantastic small team. Like, with the amount of work they are doing, you wouldn't imagine how the team is six or just seven people you would imagine. Like like, it's massive team working in that.

But, also, the way the internship is organized gives the student an opportunity to get involved in so many different parts of doing this. Like, there are a lot of parts going together, but, like, you wouldn't see how they are going together. So for instance, I worked a little bit on communication, on events, on research. I was involved in diff super different parts or stages of research starting from, like, how do we have an idea and develop it into a proposal and seek fund and then the different parts from data collection and designing the research to analyzing this data to having it as a report. And after that, how do we communicate this knowledge to policymakers, to people?

How do we address misconceptions? Because that helps us with tackling polarization, which is, I think, one of the important tasks British future does, not just policy, but also misconceptions, which are widely believed when it comes to migration.

Wow. What what a fantastic opportunity. So, Heather, I I guess this brings us to you. You're the director of research and relationships at British Future. So it would be great to understand from you, what what was the motivation behind producing the reports, and and what gaps in understanding were you aiming to fill, particularly in relation to policy on international students and the future of the sector?

Yeah. So the research was actually commissioned by Universities UK, which is the body that represents universities in The UK. And we had carried out research for them in 2014 on public attitudes to international students, which found the public to be broadly positive around international students. At that point, they didn't really regard them as migrants, and they were quite surprised that they were included in the net migration statistics. And HEND mentioned concern from the public about the pressures, the local pressures that universities might place.

And so then we carried out research in some local areas where there were universities across The UK and did find those concerns. Their positive views about living in university towns were also some a few negative experiences. So that was back in 02/2014. And so since 02/2014, public attitudes generally towards migrants have become more positive until around 2022. And then we've seen them becoming more negative and polarized as Henk mentioned.

And the reasons for that are not really around migration for work or international students. They're largely around asylum seekers and refugees and the government's successive failure to address that particular issue. But the research was commissioned by Universities UK to find out what the public currently thinks about international students, particularly since the government, the previous government, and now the current one are concerned to reduce levels of net migration. And it seems that international students were in the kind of firing line, if you like. So various measures had already been taken which had reduced the numbers of international students, including the right to bring a dependent and changes to to the graduate visa.

And so the research was really commissioned to find out the state of public attitudes. As Hend said, it was qualitative and quantitative. And it was done during the buildup to the general election. Actually, the focus groups were carried out in the week of the general election. And so the research is around public attitudes, but also to find out how to speak about international students, how to communicate.

So as a think tank, we're interested in understanding what people think, but also how to convey that, how to convey research findings to policymakers to to the public. So the research had had various purposes and has been used by Universities UK, you know, in their policy work to say what kind of policies the public would support. So that's the background of the research, very much a policy focused piece of work looking at a particular type of migration and and what the public's perspective is.

Great. That's some fascinating background. I think a lot of the things that you you've said here already have me questioning perhaps what I've heard in in the media or what sometimes common sense seems to dictate. And that nuanced picture, I'm I'm sure, will be very valuable in itself. But I'm also interested in what findings you had from the report.

So, Heather, what findings from the report surprised you the most or or might surprise us, particularly regarding public attitudes towards international students who stay in The UK after graduation, for example?

Yeah. I think the the first finding that really surprised me is from the focus groups. There was quite low level of awareness among the public on international students. It wasn't it's not really a topic that people think about. When they think about migrants and migration, they're currently thinking about asylum seekers and refugees.

Back at the time of the referendum, they were then thinking around free movement and people coming over from Eastern Europe to work in low skilled jobs. So people's idea of a migrant and their focus on migration is often on a particular form. It's rarely on international students. And so we found pretty soon when we were doing the focus groups, you couldn't really start a focus group by saying, hey. What do you think about international students?

People thought of universities and not of students. So we had to change pretty soon after the the first focus group we did so that we then asked, what are your views on universities? And we got people to give a score one to 10 positive, you know, in terms of their positivity. That was a way in because that's how people think about international students really in the context of their own experiences at university or opportunities for young people. So currently, the issues around universities that really interest people are around, are they offering a good deal for all students?

Is it the best deal for young people? Should there be more vocational routes? And so I think that did surprise me a little bit. Although it's perfectly understandable, People like me and Hend are thinking about immigration all the time. And I think probably both of us, when we come across someone who has no awareness, then we think, how can you not?

How can you not be aware of international students or think about them? Anyway, so that was a sort of wake up call in a way rather than wake up call for us, but probably not not for other people. Actually, another thing that surprised me is the is the esteem which people hold universities in in The UK. So you can kind of see that that would be more obvious in people that live in university towns and cities, but even people who don't think that they're fantastic institutions, really good for for The UK. And for that reason, they would not want them to be suffering financially.

And so I think that's where the contribution of international students comes in, that people recognize that without the contribution of international students, universities would be in financial difficulty and then not be able to deliver education to people within Britain. So they see that they're important and they wouldn't want other measures such as reducing number of universities, increasing fees. They would prefer to keep numbers of international students the same or increase rather than for universities to suffer. At the same time, they do want other provision and they want an increase in other in other provision. And you mentioned the graduate route and people staying on after.

And I think what what surprised us really was the support for the graduate route and for international students to stay on. It was quite sort of strangely expressed by some participants in focus groups as giving back as if international students hadn't already paid thousands of pounds, to be here. But they saw them as assets for The UK, particularly where they had skills that were in short supply or were needed. So so doctors, engineers, those kinds of people. As Hen mentioned, some people actually thought that international students should be required to stay on as well.

So that wouldn't be optional. I don't know how that would work, but that was a surprise to me. And I think the final thing that did really surprise me is around we asked about doing to this is in the survey. What kind of contribution do various migrants make economic, cultural? And international students were were at the top with economic migrants.

People have come here for work on economic contribution. Maybe that was not much of a surprise, but cultural contribution right at the top. And I think that's probably from people who live in university towns, just people generally, I think, you know, they think international students come here from so many different countries, so many different experiences, and they contribute to to the life of their universities and probably, you know, nationally as well. And so I think that was a nice finding of the research that had not expected. There's lots of nice findings from the research actually because, you know, obviously, you know, immigration is a contentious issue, and it it's quite polarizing.

And what it's one that gets people fired up. But as Hend says, when you actually talk to people about it, they're much more measured. So there's lots of positive findings from from the research.

Yeah. This sounds like it's it's not just a good news story for for universities who depend on international students at present for much of their income, but also quite groundbreaking in in terms of busting some assumptions that we've had in not just the public, but potentially also the policy imaginary about how people feel around migration and perhaps, by extension, international students. And so this then brings me to to my next question, which is how do you hope the report will influence government policy on migration, education, and skills, and how, by extension, might that shape a more sustainable future for UK higher education?

So we've taken up a lot of opportunities to put the findings to the research out. So we had a piece in the Observer newspaper, which would be widely read by the general public as as well as policymakers and politicians. And we recently gave evidence to an all party parliamentary group on international students. I think with our research, it's a case that's not just one avenue really for putting across our findings in a way that influence policy. We've got to use many different avenues at any time to take up opportunities, to speak to round tables, to speak to the press, to speak to politicians and policymakers.

And we also do want to build on the research as well because there's various gaps that that we think could be filled. So it's constant really plugging away. And and, of course, we don't really know you you never really know how many people read a report in the say in the way that you probably don't know how many people read an academic paper, but you hope the findings will filter through and people wouldn't be able to say things like, oh, the public doesn't want international students here. They think they're a drain. They shouldn't be allowed to bring partners.

You know, all of those topics are much are much more much more nuanced to positives. So I think it's with with the kind of research we do at British Future, it is just being there and taking every opportunity to put findings across to a wide range of audiences.

Yeah. I I I certainly think that some of the findings that you've mentioned will really change the way that people who read the report understand this phenomenon. I mean, certainly, I was surprised when you explained that people were expressing this idea that they actually wanted international students to stay on after graduation and to give back. That is is so contrasting with the narrative that we often get about what the public has said to want about migration, which is all about this anxiety of people filling flats, taking jobs, all these sorts of things. And so that was definitely fascinating to me.

Yeah. I think there's there's there's some some negatives. So I don't don't wanna put across an entirely positive picture. So there there are some concerns from the public around places at university that international students might be taking places away from home students. And also that there's a concern among the public that universities might just be after the money and attracting students.

It's about filling places that international students gonna pay more, therefore, they're gonna get the places. And so I think, you know, there's work there for universities to do and to reassure the public and policymakers that that's actually not what universities are about. That's not what they want to do. And so I think the more that universities can communicate their widening access agendas, then, you know, that would be a step in the right direction and and help to calm any any fears that international students are taking away places from local students.

Great. So this takes us back to you, actually. So, Hend, why is it important to fund research like this into public attitudes towards migration and international students?

Actually, for me, various reasons. Like, one of them, as I mentioned earlier, during times of polarization, hard and harsh and inhumane statements just prevail. And research like that give us the opportunity to to dig deeper into people's perspectives and motivations and concerns and so on, which help us to to build better policy. But the other thing is also it gives you a good understanding of how public attitudes are shifting. As Heather mentioned, similar research was conducted ten years ago, and British Future does a lot of the such longitudinal research.

And I think it's just very important to see how how things remain unchanged, but also how things which were considered ten years ago as given or enormous state of being have completely shifted. And this is very important perspective for policymakers because when we make policy, we don't make it just for this year or for the decade. You make it for a very long time. So you you need to get an understanding of that and don't let polarization lead when you make a specific policy. This also brings me to our next projects.

My internship is over, but I'm I still maintain my relationship to British Future. And I'm happy that they gave me the opportunity to develop my own proposal for a new but related research project. So what we are going to do is to focus on attitudes of international students on studying in The UK. And we think, like, this is a gap which is very important to bridge specifically at this moment because with growing uncertainties and pressures on international students, but also growing international competition over international talents. So Heather and I have been developing this proposal, and Heather is working on it further.

And, we'll get funds so we can kick start the project.

Yeah. It's great to see these kind of impactful partnerships between researchers and and and policy advocates, and, hopefully, in in long run, policymakers. It's really, really, really inspiring to see. So let's now think a bit about the the bigger picture underpinning all of this, particularly the the context during which we're recording. So we're witnessing increasing global competition for international talent and shifting visa policies, such as those recently proposed in The US that affect Harvard University, for example.

Among all these changes in competition, what what strategic opportunities or challenges do you both see for UK universities in remaining both sustainable and globally attractive?

I will start this opportunity. There are obviously a lot of challenges, but I think, like, universities in The UK are such a unique and valuable asset. There has been very good universities and departments for centuries with amazing people. And this is an amazing and unique asset which needs to be approached as such. So but this also comes with a lot of issues which we need to better manage this asset, like developing a more sustainable finance model.

And the the current one has proved to have a lot of issues. And it doesn't have to rely that much on international students. It needs to include international students because they are an asset. This is a unique thing to come study in in The UK and just meet people from all around the world, broaden your your network and get into a lot of international opportunities. Right?

How many universities have such opportunities? But in the meantime, you need to rely less on international student fees maybe because it's not very sustainable. Consider building strategies to reduce pressure on housing, involve local communities, and offer them the opportunities to learn and develop as bachelor students, for instance, but also you can have some more spaces for local communities, for other education, and so on so that they wouldn't feel that these universities are excluding them or prioritizing international students on their expense. So I believe that this is a very unique opportunity.

So I think there there are some challenges around international students staying on in The UK. We don't have reliable statistics on the sectors that they enter, but I think it's fairly clear that quite a few, quite a high proportion of international students both while they're studying and after enter into fairly low skilled work like social care and are not really entering skilled jobs. And, of course, that's not really so much a problem in the short term because after all, home students tend to spend a period of time in lower skilled jobs before progressing to graduate jobs. But you would want international students, given the amount that they paid and the talent that they have, to progress to skilled work. And I think that needs to happen probably through improved careers guidance services.

Universities do have good services, but I wonder whether they are actually meeting the needs of international students. International students tend not to have all of the contacts that home students have, all the family contacts that they have and all that they built up over time. And so I think there is an issue there. For the graduate visa to really work, it does need to get students into work quickly because otherwise, it's just filling the the scheme is just filling low skilled jobs by the back door, which some people don't see that's a problem. But I think we need to have an immigration system that does what it says.

So you have a visa and you have those people going into that visa rather than people who should be on one visa then switching switching to another. I think there's the other thing is sort of related to that, but there's a real opportunity that we have to take up in The UK. If we want economic growth, there's a real opportunity there to align our higher education system better with skills needs and economic growth in the nations and regions of The UK. That is on Labour's agenda, but it's achieving it is not going to be an easy task. And we have to involve universities, all the local stakeholders, employers much more closely in identifying shortages, looking at courses, and looking at where those links can be made so that you can use international students and home students skills effectively so they're not going into into low skilled jobs or finding themselves frustrated in their careers and then going back to their countries of origin.

That would not be a good outcome for The UK. And I think the other the other thing I would say which is important is that I think in The UK, especially when it comes to migration, we're always thinking, oh, migration's gonna go up and up and up. And and I think people in that mindset about you about international students, they think, oh, yeah. The UK is always going to be attractive to international students. It's a great place to come and study.

But, actually, there's there is intense international competition for students. And if you start tightening the terms of the visa too much, those students will go elsewhere, and we have already seen that happening. And so I think that's something that the government needs to bear in mind that word gets around. And I know there were stories of last year, the end of last year that students who had signed up for courses then decided they weren't gonna come to The UK, for various reasons to do with, the terms of the visa. And and just I think the general kind of mood music coming from The UK around migration and international students.

So I think UK has to be really careful. And I think the recent statements around the white paper from Kirsty Arma, The Nation of Strangers, and came across as very negative for people who want to come to The UK, certainly permanently, but also temporarily the changes, the proposed changes to citizenship. It's all very negative messaging, which does not really put The UK in a good position given that this is a very competitive and valuable market.

Just as a follow-up on Heather last point, I completely agree with that, and it's it's just with with the growing number of limitations, The UK is becoming less attractive than before. And on the other hand, you have growing number of new universities and branch campuses elsewhere. So competition is really, really tough, and international students now have more options than ever before. And one thing the universities here and the government need to consider, what will happen once the number of international students drop substantially. Not just what will happen to international students, but, like, what would happen to universities and how local home students would be affected.

We're witnessing increasing global competition for international talent and shifting visa policies such as those we've seen in The United States. What strategic opportunities and challenges do you see for UK universities in remaining sustainable and globally attractive?

I'm not sure how valuable my comment would be, but it's just the sense I got from international students around me, especially during the lost local elections. If reform comes to power, would that be possible in The UK? And that that was a question without an answer really, but it's, like, shows that there is a concern that things are already not great and they're going to be worse. But on the other hand, it's like doesn't sound very positive, but a lot of professors and students leaving The US now can be an opportunity for The UK. But with the current limitations, there are also no space to grow neither academic staff nor students.

So I don't know how this can be an opportunity or a lesson for The UK to learn from The US.

So how do you ensure that all this academic research translates into real world policy discussions and actions?

We can just keep it on the agenda. It's the important thing. So, you know, when we're doing policy research, when you're doing policy research or a think tank, the idea is that no report is ever gonna be put on the shelf and not mentioned again. So we're constantly looking for opportunities to discuss this, to to to tell people, you know, via podcasts like this and discussions with journalists and policymakers, what the public's concerns are, what how they view international students, and what policies they would support and the policies that they might not support. So it's a case of us continuing to engage with those audience, in particular journalists because, you know, from time to time, the issues around international students will flare up when there's publication of new statistics, start of term.

If those statistics show that number of international students have declined, if there's reports that some universities are facing financial difficulties, you know, we can then come in. We can offer opinion, and we will often be approached. But also we will make sure that we have links with journalists who are covering those issues. And we'll also take up any opportunities and to put findings across, conferences, roundtables, and and that kind of thing. So it's just a question of us ensuring that every every opportunity there is to meant to to talk about international students or other research that we have out, we we take up.

I think one other very important thing is thinking about the outputs and how to communicate them. So you the different audience need different different outputs and different ways of communicating them. So it's these these reports not just addressing policymakers, but they're also addressing people. So with British Future amazing communication team, it helps to diversify this communication channels and the different sorts of outputs. And we have seen during our work on this report that there are a lot of misconceptions around migration.

Misconception really feed polarization. So addressing these conceptions and trying to communicate, to talk about them helps to address polarization. I think the other thing is that we should always believe in small change and tiny impact because, like, no report is going to be written or no list of recommendations are going to be written and complete immediately adopted by the government or policymakers, all of them. But these tiny things which we do through keeping on producing evidence based research and giving recommendations, even if we feel at the time that they are not implemented, they are very, very important.

I think there are specific opportunities that are going to arise in the course of the next six to twelve months, which is as the white paper on immigration progresses through parliament, and that white paper has specific proposals in relation to international students. And one of those is to reduce the length of the graduate visa from two years to eighteen months. I actually think that that probably won't have much effect, but it is a white paper. And so the proposals could change over the over the course of time. So we we'll be looking for every opportunity to to put across our findings and the public's preferences around the graduate visa, but also international students.

So there'll be a particular opportunity as that piece of legislation progresses.

Yeah. And this actually brings me to another question, which is what role do you both think diversity and internationalism play in the longer term sustainability and and resilience of of UK higher education?

So universities are diverse institutions. They attract not only students, but staff from across the world. And it's very important that those staff have opportunities to the academic staff have opportunities to live and work in different countries. And I've done research in the past on recruitment of migrants, university, lecturers, and academics. And that research made it very clear to me that it's very important.

It's an international labor market, and it's very important that those people get opportunities to live and work, and there aren't restrictions on their movement. And I think there's various benefits to having an international workforce as well as an international student body. And that particular piece of research, which was done some time ago, but I think the findings will still be relevant, found that international students value the diversity of of staff, and actually the staff value the diversity of students. So and I think, again, we mentioned earlier the contribution that universities make to their the towns and cities in which they're located, And the public sees the diversity of staff and students as something that's very positive and valuable, to their local area.

So that's really interesting. I was also wondering, were there any misconceptions in in public attitudes that particularly stood out to you about migration and international students?

Yeah. One misconception, which is quite widespread, was around dependence and which dependence international students were allowed to bring with them, before the change in policy. And that misconception was that you you were an international student was allowed to bring anyone. And so we had someone in the focus group saying explicitly they're allowed to bring their grandma, their auntie, their uncle, everyone. And I think that does affect what people think about that particular policy.

We wouldn't normally, in a focus group, correct what somebody had said, but we felt on this. And and often when you are in a focus group and somebody says something that's wrong, somebody else in the focus group, not the facilitator, will say that's not quite right. It's much more powerful coming from them. But I felt we had to sort of generally say, actually, the policy allows this. And I do think that's important because then when people really thought through, oh, okay.

It's just a a partner. It's just a child. And then there was quite a lot of sympathy in the focus groups and about, well, if I was a mature student and I had a a husband and a child, I wouldn't want to go and study on my own. And so I think that accounts for why there were much more positive views in the focus groups when we discussed that than in the survey when I think around half of the survey participants said that they felt it was right, that that people weren't allowed to be independent unless they were on a research focused course. It's one of those things I think that Hen said right at the beginning, you know, when people think these things through, they come to a more measured view.

And that and in some cases, that does involve thinking, okay. Actually, that's not the case. People can't bring their entire family with them. It is just around, you know, their immediate close relatives who they would not want to live without.

Yeah. It really shows the risks of misinformation around issues like this, also the promise of of deliberative approaches to these questions. So this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation, and I have to ask, what's next for both of you?

Well, as I mentioned earlier, there is this proposal we are currently working on, and we hope to start it soon. And for me personally, it's exciting time coming ahead with starting my own fieldwork in Spain and Belgium.

Wow. Good luck for that.

Yeah. Same for me that I'm I'm currently writing this bit on the experiences and perspectives of international students. And I think I'm a researcher that has looked public attitudes, but also I'm very interested in the labor market, migration of the labor market. And I'm particularly interested in international students' perspective and experiences of the labor market, what opportunities they see in The UK, and what challenges they might see. And I see opportunities within that project to look at the experience of students who haven't stayed in The UK, that had the opportunity and have gone back to their home countries and why they did that.

I'm going to catch up with HEND soon on that. And in terms of my other work, very excited at the moment. We do a regular immigration attitudes tracker. We're about to put in the field the eighteenth wave, and this tracker has been running now for ten years. And it does include and not many questions about international students, but it includes one that would you want them increased numbers increased, reduced, stayed the same, and we can track that over time.

But I'm very keen to see the results of that survey and to write it up over the rest of the summer.

Wow. What what exciting projects. And it sounds like you've got a tremendous amount to be getting on with, and so I wish you all the best, both of them. And more generally, thank you, Hans and Heather, for for coming on the podcast. It's been really interesting to get to know you and all about your research.

I I was particularly fascinated by all of these kind of misconceptions and and sometimes myths, not just the ordinary people held about migration, but more importantly, the policymakers seem to maybe be buying into, or at least people like me seem to have internalized. And it was really good to understand the the nuance and the opportunities at the heart of this issue. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

It's a pleasure. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

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