I saw it as a thing to be ashamed of | Lived Experience of Dyscalculia
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Liz Herbert:Hello, and welcome to the Lived Experience of Discalculia podcast series. This has been created as part of a Higher Education Innovation Fund research project at the UCL Institute of Education, and, the podcast was created in partnership with the Dyscalculia Network. I'm Liz Herbert.
Helen Williams:And I'm Helen Williams. I'm a researcher at the Institute of Education.
Liz Herbert:So, through in-depth conversations with adults with lived experience of dyscalculia, we've been exploring how this often misunderstood specific learning difficulty shapes everyday life, education, emotions and opportunities. And in this podcast series, we we share the voices and the insights of people whose experiences are too rarely heard with the aim of raising awareness, challenging misconceptions, and better informing support for adults with dyscalculia. Just a reminder that adults with dyscalculia remain significantly underrepresented in research, in higher education policy and in workplace inclusion strategies. And as dyscalculia persists across the lifespan, understanding adult experiences is essential for developing equitable educational provision across the lifespan and informing inclusive workplace practice. So this is our third and final episode.
Liz Herbert:So we're gonna turn to look at the identification of dyscalculia. And in particular here, we're going to look at the impact it has on education. So this is an area where many of our research participants describe they have really significant difficulties. So from their early struggles in the classroom to placement in lower sets when they were in school, to the impact of teaching strategies and the impacts of delayed diagnosis many of um our participants had to wait a very long time to get a diagnosis and participants often reflected on how this late diagnosis shaped their confidence and their long term relationship with mathematics. So today, we're really lucky, and I'm very excited to tell you we're joined here by Pete today.
Liz Herbert:We've got apologies from Amelia who was going to join us, but Pete has joined us all the way from Türkiye. So I'm gonna say hi, Pete. How are you today?
Peter:Hi. I'm good. Thanks.
Liz Herbert:I bet it's sunnier there there than it is here.
Peter:It is. Yeah. But, no. I'm doing well. Thanks very much.
Peter:It's a pleasure to be here.
Liz Herbert:Yeah. Just tell us a little bit about before we launch into some questions that Helen's going to ask you. Just tell me a little bit about what what you're doing over in Türkiye and and about you who you are, why you're here today. I know you're part of the Dyscalculia Network Advisory Board. Is that right, Pete?
Peter:That's right. Yeah. I'm actually Chair of the Adults with Dyscalculia Advisory Board in the Dyscalculia Network, which as you all know is a community interest company that volunteers like myself do some volunteer work to raise awareness of dyscalculia and the way that it can affect your everyday life. Yes. I should, yeah, introduce myself a little bit.
Peter:So I'm 38 years old. I'm currently working as Assistant Director at the British Institute of Ankara, which is a research institute based in Türkiye where we support research and arts, humanities and social sciences. And, yeah, I mean, as will come out in this this this podcast, this talk, I'm someone who's always had quite strong skills when it's come to literacy and languages. And on the reverse, though, I've I've actually struggled quite a lot with maths and still do. And I was diagnosed with dyscalculia when I was about 10 years old.
Peter:We often say dyscalculia comes with a friend and my friend as it were is dyspraxia and yeah I wouldn't be surprised if there's other things in there as well. But yeah so for me a lot of issues with maths, and I have some issues sometimes with coordination, things like that as well.
Liz Herbert:Yeah, that's a very common co occurring difficulty and some of our participants in the prior podcast talked about for instance having ADHD as well as dyscalculia. So, it's, yeah, as you say, nice that it comes with a friend. So, I'm going to pass over to Helen now. So, Helen's got a few questions for you that are based on our recent research.
Helen Williams:Thanks very much Liz and hi Pete again. You mentioned in that introduction to yourself that you were about 10 years old when you got a diagnosis of dyscalculia. Can you tell us when you first started noticing difficulties with mathematics or when your parents first started noticing difficulties?
Peter:So as I mentioned before, I've always had quite strong skills when it's come to things on to languages and literacy. And I'm very fortunate that I always used to score sort of top of the top of the class when it came to English. And so I scored towards the bottom of the class and in fact, you know, quite considerably at bottom when it came to maths. And again, I'm fortunate, and my mom is actually a primary school teacher. So I think she was far more attuned to things that could be wrong, think something was up.
Peter:And she could sense that there was that there was a reason, you know, it wasn't just being a little bit bad at maths. There was something a bit more serious going on and I'd say sort of anecdotally and I do find this interesting when there's so much we don't know about dyscalculia but it seems to be quite a strong trait in our family. So I have an uncle who's sadly no longer with us, but he was also very strong at literacy and but struggled with maths. And we found some score reports of his where, you know, it's it's quite upsetting because it seems like he was these were the years when they used to give, you know, the cane to children and he used to get that for maths because they used to think he was not, you know, that how could he be doing so strongly in one subject but not in another. So I do think there's an element of, you know, there's more something, you know, genealogical there that it seems does seem to be in the family.
Peter:But, yeah, I mean, that's really why I got noticed. And indeed, I got I then got a a statement from educational psychologist and that's when it sort of came out that this was just before I went to secondary school. I got a a report actually on it and it said then, yeah, that I came out strongly as having dyscalculia, some traits, obviously, also with dyspraxia, but then gifted in other areas. So, yeah.
Liz Herbert:Yeah. So, Pete, I I what you were saying is that you you got a statement. For our listeners who don't know what a statement is, it it's kinda been superseded now by the term education, EHCP, education and health care plan, and this is the what what which currently be the term used. And I'm thinking when you got, you know, when you were assessed and I know I'd been around in education for a long time, as has Helen, was this done by an educational psychologist that was attached to the school or do you I don't know if you remember.
Peter:Yeah, it was. I do. I've I do remember actually. So it was an educational psychologist. I remember going to an office for it.
Peter:It was funny because, you know, well, as this conversation will come out, for a long time, I didn't really engage with my dyscalculia at all. I actually saw it as a bit of a a thing to be ashamed of. But a few years ago, I sort of went on a journey, if you like, of sort of coming to terms a bit more and looking into it and I actually found, well, this this, you know, inverted comma statement and what was written in it. I mean, it made me laugh because essentially, it was saying I was constantly trying to distract from the maths questions. So when I was talking about books I'd read, films I liked, and then started reading off facts about different countries and things, and I was trying to distract constantly.
Liz Herbert:Good tactics Pete!
Peter:Yeah, exactly.
Helen Williams:Yeah. So can I just pick up on that, Pete? You you mentioned that it was a psychologist, an educational psychologist that gave you that statement. Was it something that your parents pursued privately, or was it something that came through the school? The reason I'm asking is because again this has been a recurring theme is that lots of people have had to pursue this privately because it hasn't been able to be affordable through the school system.
Peter:Absolutely. Frustratingly I can't really give you an answer to that. I think it was think it was probably privately, you know my mum or dad would know. But you're absolutely right I mean I just want to also just pick up that I'm very aware of the fact that I was actually very lucky to get that that diagnosis and I know it's it's really not very common at all and you know as I said before you know I initially felt quite ashamed of having dyscalculia and it's something I tried to hide a lot but in retrospect I realised having that diagnosis was extremely important because I think I would have had a worse experience if I hadn't.
Helen Williams:Okay, so that leads really nicely into your experiences then at secondary school. So you you had this diagnosis and you had a statement of special educational needs which went with you to your secondary school. What impact do you think that had on your education at secondary school?
Peter:Major, to be honest. So, I mean, I in terms of the education I got, so I was actually I had a special maths class. So initially, I was put in the bottom set for maths. And I and eventually, I was then taken out into the special educational needs center, as it was called then. I used to actually have so two of my lessons a week were with a special maths teacher, sort of a maths teacher that was sort of trained to support people with learning difficulties.
Peter:And then she used to set work that I would then do with a teaching assistant. And I mean, that really did help. I managed to get I didn't pass my maths GCSE, which is still sometimes an issue that affects my self esteem. But I, you know, I I did at least manage to well, I got an an E. So it wasn't an F, was an E in the end.
Peter:And, yeah, and so that that helped a lot. In terms of culturally in the school though, I didn't really I didn't feel I didn't feel comfortable at all. I found it quite embarrassing that I used to go off to special educational needs center. As I said before, you know, my skills in other areas were strong. So for example, the other so English, maths, and science were set, were in sets in my school.
Peter:And so in science, I was a kind of middle set, and I think that was because of the maths element in a lot of science. English, was in the top and I used to get the English prize most years, but then maths, yeah, obviously, I was going off to special educational needs center. And as consequence with the friends I made, they tend to be sort of high achievers. So I used to feel quite embarrassed and ashamed. I also went to an all boys school.
Peter:So it was a comprehensive school. It wasn't a private school, but it was an all boys school. And I have to say that wasn't the best environment for me because the school itself had sort of the kind of ethos, the way it represents itself was a school, a sort of science technology kind of place. And there was this kind of culture and this logic in the school that, you know, if you were, you know, men are good at maths, boys are good at maths. And, you know, and in in response, English was therefore kind of seen as a bit sort of effeminate as it were.
Peter:And so it did lead to teasing. It did lead to, you know, really, to be honest, I mean, you know, I went on to do postgraduate research and I did my PhD on masculinities, literary representations of masculinities. And I always think it actually seeds of that come from that experience. And I say for me, I think, you know, maths, you know, it's a whole question about gender as well that I think is connected to it all. And I did find it very, very difficult for sure.
Helen Williams:Gosh, there's such a lot there to unpick. I'm just gonna pick up on the gender issue as that's the last thing that you've mentioned there, because we found that there were very few males in our research. So we've interviewed children and young people, as well as adults. And actually, males are hugely underrepresented. So I'm just interested in in what your thoughts are as to why that might be.
Peter:Well, I I mean, I don't think for a minute that, you know, it's that, you know, there aren't many men out there that are also also have dyscalculia. There definitely are. I mean, the uncle I mentioned even earlier, I mean, obviously a man. So and I mean, mean, obviously he didn't have a diagnosis, but I would guess that that was that was the case. But I think there's a there's a lot in in sort of masculinity and sort of being man, which is often about putting up a front and not admitting kind of weaknesses or or areas that you find challenging or need support on.
Peter:And I do think our approach to education is extremely gendered. I really do. And I do think, you know, maths particularly because think of the traits we often associate with kind of masculinities. It's often about logic. It's about, you know, taking emotion out of it.
Peter:It's about being sort of scientific or what have you. And I think as a consequence, we sort of as a society sort of imagine men to be good at maths. Or this is a kind of masculinized subject. So I think that is a big reason and I would love to see more research on that. I think it's important.
Peter:I think that is a big reason why you probably won't find more men coming forward and saying, actually, I find maths really difficult. And I think, you know, even just in the sort of households as well, I mean, if you think about the way that we gender, how we look after bills and budgets, you know, there's a I mean, for women as well, there's a this is a this is problematic, but I do think we see that, oh, that sort of like, you know, the man's job kind of thing. I mean, it's obviously, I'm not saying I support that or agree with it. But I think that also leads to that kind of cultural baggage, you know, gender cultural baggage when it comes to maths.
Liz Herbert:And, Pete, it does I think actually there is a lot of the research on dyscalculia does suggest that there there isn't actually a significant gender divide in the prevalence, and I think there have been some large scale evaluations of, schoolchildren, and and the ratio tends to be pretty even between boys and girls, so prevalence wise. So that's that's quite interesting, isn't it? That the, interviews that we did were were mainly with women and girls.
Helen Williams:So it's possible, I guess, Liz, is that people just weren't pushing themselves forward because of this not wanting to admit that there's actually an issue. So, yes, you're right, Pete. I think we do need to do more research. I think this is the beginning of something rather than the the end point here. I'm just going to pick you up on something you mentioned in your earlier response about the emotions that you felt.
Helen Williams:And you said you felt a sense of of shame and about being stigmatized, I guess, by being in the bottom set and having to go to the special classes. And you talked about being teased at school. So tell me a little bit more about your sort of emotional journey over your secondary school period, And how did you overcome it? Because you clearly did. You're very successful now.
Peter:Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I so yeah. I mean, to begin with, I really struggled, you know.
Peter:I didn't I didn't like to admit the fact that I had dyscalculia or I had issues with maths. Of course, we have a problem even that's still the case now where people don't really know what that word means, let alone how to pronounce it and what have you. So that also it tends to lead to more questions and answers. And I mean, if you look on social media now, I mean, I know there's a lot of nastiness on social media, full stop. But if you look at people posting about dyscalculia, you'll always find posted something underneath about, oh, they're just making up another, you know, another issue now.
Peter:And I mean, there are also nasty people that deny the existence of dyslexia, of course, but it always seems to me crazy that people don't seem to have thought, well, if dyslexia exists, surely there's something similar for numeracy because me, that's just obvious, but we haven't. But anyway, that's a slightly
Liz Herbert:I'm sorry, Pete. Was just gonna come in there and say it's interesting, actually, that with dyslexia, we had the the big Delphi study, didn't we? When with regards to the new UK definition done by Julia Carroll and her colleagues, where while we have got a new definition of dyscalculia in The UK, which is the twenty twenty five one, that there wasn't a Delphi study preceding that. So interesting, isn't it? The yeah.
Liz Herbert:Again, there's a a disparity.
Peter:Oh, very, very big one. Mean, you know, as the Dyscalculia Network, they always talk about how actually dyslexia is around twenty years behind. Sorry, dyscalculia is about twenty years behind dyslexia in term research and awareness. I mean, certainly this awareness I would say, you know, maybe even more than twenty. But but to come out to this original question about sort of emotions and feelings, yeah, it definitely wasn't positive.
Peter:I know really, mean, particularly when you're a teenager, you know, it's often the case, you know, you don't like to appear different in any way. You like to I mean, as we get older, we realize actually, you know, what makes you different is cool. That's what makes you you. But when you're a teenager, you don't feel like that at all. You just want to fit in.
Peter:And so I found it really very, very difficult, you know. I, you know, I would purposely be late sometimes because I didn't want people to see me going in there, lie about where I was going at maths class. I remember at one point saying well, at one point saying I was so gifted at maths, I had to go for these special classes. I mean, you know, there was there's all sorts. I really felt, you know, embarrassed by it and it did continue, you know, into even into my undergraduate degree because I remember at one point so I declared obviously my, you know, my my dyscalculia when I was going to university And, you know, the university put in a sort of education plan and of course, dyscalculia and dyspraxia don't just affect maths, they can also affect all of this kind stuff.
Peter:So I was given extra time for exams. But I remember very well I was taken off I was taken off into another classroom and I was furious. I really didn't like it because I really didn't like the fact that I was seen to be different. And of course, then you get dins afterwards, Like, oh, what happened? Why were you taken to a different classroom,
Peter:Or even like, why, you know, why aren't you in the exam hall? So all of these kinds of feelings of shame, this was really really where I you know, it was it was all of it really. It really did impact me a lot. And, you know, to be honest as well, when I so when I actually started really coming to terms of my dyscalculia, it's when I was in my early thirties. And I, you know, I've I yes.
Peter:I had I've been successful in in career in my career and things like that. But during COVID, you know, I hit as many people do, I hit a difficult patch and I became aware or I thought maybe I need to retrain. And I had thought because I've done a lot of teaching English in my career and a lot of teaching, although not in schools, but more kind of higher education and a teaching English as a foreign language. And so I thought, well, maybe I should do a PGCE and retrain as an English teacher. And and I found, you know, despite all of my achievements, I couldn't get on because I hadn't passed my maths GCSE.
Peter:And, you know, initially, I can tell you now, I mean, I'm in a much better sort of mental state and everything now because now it just makes me angry because I do think it is actually discrimination. But when I was in a a point when, know, I couldn't find a job and I just felt really upset and I sort of turned a lot of that, you know, inwards and I felt like failure and I started trying to do a maths GCSE in adult education centres and the first, I tried two different courses. The first one I turned up, they didn't know what dyscalculia was and the second course I turned up to the teacher was lovely, actually. Really nice person. But I remember there were so many people in that class that needed help.
Peter:And in incidentally, you would not believe how many of them were trying to be teachers. And they had degree from very good universities in The UK, but they just wanted to be teachers in English, in art, in history, in things like this. And again, it's this blimming maths GCSE that they couldn't pass. And one person told me that this was their third time doing it. And I do feel, you know, it make when I reflect on it, I do get angry because I think these people are, you know, we sort of talk about unemployment issues and things like that in The UK.
Peter:Well, there is a prime example. People that will be excellent teachers are being prevented because of this, and that is just wrong, wrong, wrong. And I do, so anyway, I went for this, you know, tried to do maths GCSE again. It caused me a huge amount of stress. I mean, I also suffer from psoriasis which I actually, to be honest, I developed around the time I was in secondary school.
Peter:So it's probably also linked and I was getting horrendous psoriasis flare ups and I just felt sick every time I was going to the maths class. And then I actually just put a Facebook message out one day because I was just looking for an answer or some for some help because the maths homework, you know, I was sitting down and doing it and I just I can't retain maths facts. It was just hopeless. I just could not. I mean, I really could not do it.
Peter:Like, it was just the point that it was taking me so much energy and I just was looking at it and I was thinking, I don't know how to even begin answering this question this maths question. And I so I I put a message on Facebook on a dyscalculia group I found. And I just asked, does anyone else have this? And an absolute angel called Cat Eagle answered that message. And that's how I got involved with Dyscalculia Network.
Peter:And being involved, you know, Cat I do have to say Cat is an absolutely wonderful person. And she's an absolute, you know, she's worth more than her body weight in gold. And and she really gave me the confidence actually to say, you know, look, I don't actually think, she said, if you can't I'm not saying you can't do a maths GCSE, you can, but you can't do it in a year. You need more time. You need the space.
Peter:And she really empowered me to the point where I am where I think, you know, yes, I would do a maths GCSE. I would love to you know, I'd see that as a bigger achievement than my PhD to be honest, but I want to do it on my own terms and I don't want to do it to please other people. I want to do it to please myself and to show that I don't and, you know, being involved with dyscalculia network, you know, more than helping me sort of come to terms with my dyscalculia, it also helped me sort of come to terms with who I am and helped me realize that, you know, there's actually a lot that I can do and there's a lot that I can that that I can achieve and that it's I, you know, it doesn't have to be measured by whether I've got a C in maths or not.
Helen Williams:Gosh. Oh, that's so empowering to hear you talk there, Pete. It really is. That's super, you know, the fact that you've managed to use difficulties that you've had to kind of go through it the other side is fantastic. I just wonder, lots of our participants in our research noted about some teaching strategies being more helpful to them than others.
Helen Williams:And just thinking about some of the things you said, you said you found things like number facts really hard to retain. And I just wonder if there are some teaching strategies that you have found or some sort of mnemonics that have been more useful to you than others. Just thinking about other people that that may also have difficulties. What advice might you suggest?
Peter:Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm a huge fan of calculators. I don't feel there should be any any shame in in calculators. I also can't I mean, for me, I'm I'm very, you know, I learn by writing things out. So for me, I often need to write out.
Peter:So I sort of sketch out if I've got to do a sum or whatever. I have to sort of write out and I will draw, you know, like bunny hops or whatever between numbers. I also use fingers a lot And, you know, I can't really sort of calculate without my fingers. So these sorts of things have helped me. I do find if it's something to do so in my job, for example, I have to handle budgets, which is the bit I like the least.
Peter:But I do find that it's really helpful if you've got someone at work that you can talk to who will go over things with you, help with that. And that's that's really helpful because I've been very honest with some people I work with and they will always, you know, they will always be there to help, you know, with with numbers when wherever sort of budgeting, whatever comes in. Because, you know, it's the thing where I can I'm good at the kind of the ideas and developing the projects and developing stuff but when it comes to the budgets and the numbers, I'm not so good. So yeah, I mean things like that I would say help help quite a lot. Yeah.
Helen Williams:Yeah. And again, you're not alone. Other people have told us the same sort of things, you know, having things visually represented rather than having just sums on a board, for example. People have also mentioned to us about supportive work colleagues and how that's really important in helping them to overcome difficulties. Oh, and what about other aspects of maths?
Helen Williams:You mentioned number work in particular. Are there some aspects of mathematics obviously, it's it's a broad topic that you're good at, things that you are not as bad at?
Peter:So I remember actually, I used to quite used to prefer probability actually. And I used to prefer things that so I remember when we also started really basic algebra, I actually didn't mind that so much because it sort of new sort of like turns almost into a game. I mean, I wouldn't say it's very advanced algebra but it does kind of turn into a game and I used to prefer that sort of aspect a bit more. You know, there's certain, you know, multiplication tables I prefer to others, you know, twos fives and tens great, elevens until you get into the the hundreds. So it's so yes, aspects of that.
Peter:You know, I do find I mean, it's interesting when you think so I mean, sorry, this might sound like a very pretentious answer, but there's a novel by a writer called Zia Haider Rahman. It's called In the Light of What We Know. It's not an easy book to read at all.
Peter:It's very big. But in it, he talks a lot about maths and he talks about this this mathematical Kurt Gödel, if I'm pronouncing correctly. And and I found that really interesting to think about the fact that maths is all about certainty and like providing answers, but actually there's elements of maths that you can't know and I find that interesting to think about. But if you ask me that into maths, numbers and the kind of mechanics of maths, I probably wouldn't enjoy it.
Helen Williams:Okay. Well, that's really interesting. I haven't read that book, so maybe we can put the link in our our show notes so that other listeners can find it because that might be a useful thing to pass on.
Peter:Incidentally, I always think that, I mean, I would love one day to write a book on dyscalculia and my experience with dyscalculia because some of the things I mentioned earlier about the kind of gendered aspect that I think there are things to do there and things to write there and I it it upsets me because I mean I'm a big reader. I really like reading and I find, you know, if you go to any bookshop, you'll see that there are there's loads there on ADHD, autism, dyslexia. There's still not really a good book on dyscalculia and yeah I hope one day to write it.
Helen Williams:Well that sounds good. We've got several articles that we're hoping to write on the back of our research so there will be some other evidence coming out that you can draw on to write your book. Okay. So, getting near the end of our podcast now. I'm just thinking about preparation for adult life, really.
Helen Williams:And in terms of mathematics, you talked about how some aspects were easier than others and using a calculator is a really good thing. Are there things that maybe your school could have done to help you better prepare for adult life?
Peter:Oh, I mean, absolutely. I mean, I don't also want to, you know, do down the maths teachers I had at secondary school. I actually do think they, you know, they did a good job and it really helped. But I think and this is more on a sort of curriculum level as opposed to, you know, maths itself. But I think I really think, you know, we must have education on finance in in our schools because, you know, so much of our approach to literacy, for example, teach English is about providing people with the skills to read and write and, you know, read critically, which is extremely important right now, of course, and all of this stuff.
Peter:But I don't think we are adequately providing people to manage a budget, to manage the house, to you know, think about things like mortgages and stuff like that. So all of that stuff, I mean, I think it just needs to be general sort of thinking about how, you know, what maths we need in our everyday life. So I I definitely would have preferred that and I think that would have been more useful for me and yeah, I I would have I would have liked that definitely. Yeah.
Helen Williams:Yeah. Okay. That's that's helpful for us to know. And is there anything else particularly about the identification of math difficulties that you'd like to share? Thinking about you know messages for for teachers in schools as well.
Peter:Yeah well I mean just coming back also to to something else so I've just something else to add to the last question which also is this one is I also think that in retrospect me going out to the special education on these lesson letter center to have those maths lessons. I do think that could have probably been better managed. So that would've taken away some of my feelings of anxiety and you know, all the bad stuff. So I think there's elements of that that I think could have been better managed. But I also think that leads on to the answer on my answer to the question you just asked, which is I think generally, we should have a situation where teachers are more aware of the fact that there will be someone with dyscalculia in their classroom.
Peter:I mean, dyscalculia doesn't just affect maths, it affects science, geography, PE even sometimes. There's a lot of maths work, maths skills in in exercise and things like that. And that's something as an adult that I'm often aware of. You know, if you're going to a gym and you have to keep hold of like how many reps or whatever you're doing, really difficult when you can't hold numbers in your head. So, yes, anyway, I think the fact that they can be more aware of the fact that there's people with dyscalculia in their classroom, I think more just, I guess, just sort of messaging around the fact that, you know, all of us, including them, you know, there is no such thing as a neurotypical brain.
Peter:There is no such thing as, you know, neurotypicality or whatever we say. So, you know, everyone is neurodiverse on some level. No one brain is the same. And actually, as you get older, you realize how important that is because whatever line of work you go into, whether it is, you know, something like I'm doing or whether it's even, I don't know, working in a bank or something, you know, or you actually need different skill sets and different talents. So that should be something that I think should be messaged at the in any kind of educational place.
Peter:It certainly was no part in my education, I would say.
Helen Williams:Fascinating. I'm going to hand back to Liz to see if there's anything else that she'd like to ask you before we end today's session. Liz, is there anything that you wanted to pick up?
Liz Herbert:Well, I just want to thank rather than ask any more questions because I think you've been very patient with all our questions, Pete, I just wanted to thank you, really, because it's just been so interesting to hear about all your experiences. And, you know, I do hope that, you know, we teachers and workplaces can can learn from from listening to these stories because they they do help highlight the importance of early recognition, the need for effective teaching strategies, and and, you know, it's there's some valuable lessons that we can learn from listening to people like you, Pete.
Peter:Well, thank you very much. It's a pleasure. And, yeah, I hope I mean, if just one person listens and it helps it's worth it.
Helen Williams:I'm sure we'll get more than one listen.
Liz Herbert:We hope. Fingers crossed. So I'd like to so we close this podcast now, and I just want to to wrap up with a a few reminders. So if you'd like to know more, do check out the links in our episode notes, and hopefully, we'll get, the link to that book Pete mentioned here as well. If you've enjoyed this episode, do check out more podcasts from the Institute of Education.
Liz Herbert:Just search IOE insights, and you should find lots of podcasts available there. And a quick favour before you go, we hate asking this, but if you are listening on Apple or Spotify, we'd really appreciate it. If you could give the IOE Insights podcast a rating. Of course, we'd love five stars, but any stars would be brilliant, and that will help us reach more people who may be interested in hearing more about the IOE. So we'd like to thank lots of thank yous today because it's our last podcast.
Liz Herbert:So we'd like to thank the IOE and MarComms and particularly Jason for facilitating these podcasts and all our adult participants who have generously shared their lived experiences in this series. So, you know, these podcasts wouldn't have happened without your voices, so thank you so much. We'd also like to thank the Higher Education Innovation Fund for funding our work and the Discalculia Network, our partners, for making this collaborative knowledge exchange possible. So I've been Liz Herbert and
Helen Williams:I'm Helen Williams. Thank you very much for listening.
Liz Herbert:And thanks again, Pete. So thanks for listening everyone. Do check out our LinkedIn profiles. Pete, have you got a LinkedIn profile?
Peter:I do and I also just wanted to add as well just a plug that if you do have any issues with dyscalculia, please do get in touch with Dyscalculia Network.
Liz Herbert:Yeah. We'll share a link to the Dyscalculia Network website in our show notes. And if you want to contact us or you've got any further questions, please do. So thank you. We've really enjoyed doing this.
Helen Williams:Thank you. Goodbye.
IOE announcer:Thanks for listening. Search IOE insights for more podcasts from the IOE.
