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You're listening to IOE
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Insights, the UCL Institute of
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Education podcast at University
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College London.
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This is Academia et al. The
podcast for anyone and everyone
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figuring out life in academia.
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This is Academia et al. The
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podcast for early career
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academics.
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I am Zeinab El-Khateeb, I'm a
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lecturer in teacher education at
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the UCL Faculty of Education and
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Society.
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In this series of episodes, we
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are going to hear stories about
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academic journeys, achievements
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and legacy, which we hope will
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inspire you to embark on your
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own adventure as an early career
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researcher.
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Today, I'm delighted to welcome
Professor Caroline Daly to the
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studio here with us.
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She is a professor of teacher
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education and director of the
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Centre for Teachers and Teaching
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Research, CTTR.
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She has an interest in the role
of digital technologies in
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professional learning, mentor
learning and school factors that
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affect teacher education.
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Caroline, welcome to the studio
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with us and thank you for
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joining us.
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Thanks very much for asking me
to be here.
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Zeinab.
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I'm delighted.
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Thank you.
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It's a pleasure to have you as
well here.
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Firstly, it would be helpful if
you could provide the audience
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with an overview of your
academic journey and progression
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to the present day.
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Well, I actually started here as
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a student teacher many, many
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years ago.
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I came here to do a PGCE to
train to be a secondary English
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teacher, which I loved doing,
but I had no idea.
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When I finished my initial
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teacher education program all
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those years ago that I could be
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speaking here today with you as
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a professor of teacher
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education.
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Um, that was completely outside
of my thinking at that time.
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Um, I was focused on going into
teaching, which I did for ten
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years in two different schools.
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And I loved it, but I always
knew that I wanted to return to
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the Institute of Education.
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I wanted to continue studying.
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I wanted to learn more about my
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practice and about the research
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and the theoretical perspectives
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that could help me to understand
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teaching better.
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So I did return here to do my
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M.A. in English in Education,
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which was a fantastic
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experience.
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Um, and after that, I actually
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joined the Institute of
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Education as a tutor in initial
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teacher education on the
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secondary English teacher
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program.
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Um, and really from that, I
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gradually moved into working in
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professional learning for
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teachers who had recently
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qualified, um, developing a
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practice based master's program
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for them here with colleagues
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who were really interested in
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using technologies at quite an
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early stage.
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This was in the early two
thousand to let teachers, um,
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participate in professional
learning outside of their school
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hours without necessarily having
to come in, um, except on a few
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occasions a year.
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And I found that a really
fascinating program to work on.
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And then I gradually became more
and more involved in research.
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I started my own PhD research to
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investigate what was happening
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with these teachers who were
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studying with us to obtain a
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practice based master's program,
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mostly online.
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And I was intrigued by what they
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were doing online, how they were
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learning online.
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Um, if it was worthwhile
learning what was going on, what
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was changing in their
understandings of their practice
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and then in their practice.
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So I did my PhD research into
that, um, very closely linking
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therefore my teaching here at
the institute and my research.
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And then I became increasingly
interested in teacher
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development at a wider scale.
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Um, and I was able to be the
project leader for the London
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region, for the government
funded, uh, masters in teaching
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and learning that was launched
in the year twenty ten.
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Uh, so we worked with the
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University of East London and
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with King's College and with two
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local authorities and some
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schools to be able to
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co-construct a program which we
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provided together.
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And that was a really great
chance to work with other
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institutions and other
colleagues across the sector to
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think about the best way of
designing for new teachers to
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learn to support them.
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Um, and then after that, I went
to work in Cardiff University on
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a secondment basis.
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And that was after I had my PhD
and I was carrying out various
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projects into teachers learning
in online environments and also
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into mentoring new teachers.
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Um, until most recently, I was
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fortunate enough to become the
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director of our center for
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Teachers and Teaching Research
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here at the Institute of
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Education, something I could
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never have dreamed of when I was
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a PGCE student all those years
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ago.
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Um, and it's a center that's
particularly dedicated to
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understanding the professional
learning of teachers, what it
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takes to support teacher agency.
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Um, so that our education
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system, our schools can better
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impact on social inequalities
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and try to provide a more
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equitable experience of
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education and access to
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education for all our young
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people.
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So I work with a great team in
the center.
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Um, and we undertake a range of
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different kinds of projects that
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are really linked by that focus
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on agency and social justice
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brought about within the
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teaching profession.
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Excellent.
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That's a really interesting and
informative journey.
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And I must say something about
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the I o. You always come back to
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it.
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Yeah.
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It's written through me like a
stick of rock.
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No, honestly, I've experienced
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the same thing and have so many
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colleagues said exactly the
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same.
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I did my PGCE here, but then I
came back.
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If it's leadership course or
it's, you know, a master or PhD,
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something about IO brings you
back, pull you back, come back.
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Because like, well, I think that
because it's a place where you
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know you're going to be
encouraged and provoked to think
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critically and to ask questions
that are worth asking.
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To develop as a teacher or a
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leader, or to carry out
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research.
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Um, it's, it's something that
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helps to advance that true
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possibility of agency for
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teachers being able to make a
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difference.
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And we need teachers to be
informed and critical thinkers
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and research literate.
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And I think the institute has
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has helped me to do that through
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a range of different kinds of
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pathways.
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Um, and it does it for others.
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And I think, yeah, that's why
people keep coming back.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It feeds you intellectual needs.
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Indeed.
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It's something, you know, that's
actually always attacks me
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again, to do research and to
carry on, as you said.
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Is that feeding your
intellectual need, isn't it?
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Lovely.
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Thank you so much.
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Let's go to the next question
then, which is very much related
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to your journey.
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Which professional
accomplishment or initiative do
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you consider the most
significant to date?
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Ah, that would be.
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I'm sure you have a lot to
choose because currently working
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with the center for Teachers and
Teaching Research is something
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which I feel is a real privilege
to work with a team of
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colleagues who are dedicated to
research in that area.
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Um, but I would say prior to
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that, probably one of the most
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transformative experiences for
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me was, um, when I was seconded
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to a Cardiff University in
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Wales.
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I think secondments are always
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fantastic opportunities to get
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out of our comfort zones, find
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out how other institutions work
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and expand our networks of
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colleagues.
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And of course, working with
Cardiff University meant I was
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working in a different education
system completely as a devolved
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nation within the United
Kingdom, of course.
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And so going to work there.
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Um, again, I was co-leading, um,
a practice based master's
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program for their new entrance
to teaching for the first three
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years of their career.
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Um, and that was a wonderful
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experience, first of all,
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because it meant that I could
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work in an education system,
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which in twenty twelve was
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investing hugely in the
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intellectual development of
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research literacy as an
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entitlement to all its newly
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qualified teachers, um, by
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paying for them on an elective
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basis to study for a master's
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program for the first three
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years of their career, very
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carefully designed.
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Obviously, that's a great
opportunity.
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I can imagine that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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To develop an inquiry stance
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around the things that really
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matter to them as new teachers
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and to develop research
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literacy.
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That made a difference for
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teaching their pupils in their
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schools, in their subjects or in
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their phase.
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So it was contextualized,
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absolutely contextualized with
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enormous respect for what the
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teachers knew about their
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classrooms that nobody else
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knows.
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Absolutely.
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As a starting point.
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So to be able to develop a
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master's program that was
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working in that way, um, and to
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which the teachers were entitled
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was fantastic.
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Um, and they were also entitled
to a mentor as part of the
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program for three years.
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That was again, supported
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financially by the Welsh
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Government.
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Um, and it was an external
mentor.
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So it was a very interesting
departure from the norm.
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And this was a deliberate
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strategy to recruit mentors from
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outside.
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The new teacher schools.
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They still had the normal kind
of mentoring relationship with a
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person within the school, but
they had an external mentor who
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was their master's program
mentor, who was a highly
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experienced professional, either
a teacher in another school or a
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person in the local authority,
or a person who worked in a
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university who had been a
teacher, and they visited their
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schools and worked with them,
bringing an outside, independent
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perspective to their teaching
and helping them to interpret
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the routines in the schools
around them and the way that
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things were normally done.
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And that kind of support was
extremely unusual in our
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education system, certainly for
newly qualified teachers.
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Um, and in Wales, I could see
that up close.
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We could develop a national
mentor network.
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It was like a Training for a
program within a program.
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For the mentors to learn and to
develop what they were doing
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with these new teachers.
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Um, and it was a really terrific
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experience to work with
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colleagues at Cardiff
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University, Bangor University,
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Aberystwyth University.
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It was in two languages.
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I was going to say because they
have bilingual system, isn't it
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Welsh and English?
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Indeed, yeah.
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Wow.
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And it was effective again.
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The teachers could choose which
language to study in.
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Yeah.
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Everything that we produced was
there in both languages.
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Everything was conducted in both
languages.
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Our learning days where student
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teachers attended the mentor
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training days.
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Um, everything was in both
languages.
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So I learned a lot about being,
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um, preparing material and
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working with colleagues across
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languages, um, to ensure
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inclusion.
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Um, and it meant that we could
work together, bringing the
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different kinds of perspective
and expertise from the different
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universities to provide what was
appropriate throughout Wales.
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We worked with three annual
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cohorts and there was a change
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of minister.
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Sadly, the minister who had this
as the vision um left.
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And as soon as that person left
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and the new minister came in, of
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course, there was a there was a
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change as so is so often the
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case.
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And it wasn't the priority for
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the new minister in terms of
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resource allocation.
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And so it didn't continue to
run.
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But it was a very successful
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experiment with hundreds of new
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teachers in Wales becoming
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master's graduates after three
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years.
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Wow.
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You must be very proud of this
achievement.
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It was a joint.
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I mean, it was a real
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collaboration, I think, with my
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colleagues across the
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universities and with the
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mentors who were amazing in the
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way they responded to doing
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something that none of us had
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ever done before quite like
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this.
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Um, so yeah, it's a source of
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real sort of joint pride and
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shows what you can do when
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you're prepared to take risks
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because it was a risk never been
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done before.
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Definitely out of your comfort
zone.
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Very much out of my comfort
zone.
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You know, two language systems,
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different language and
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absolutely.
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But amazing.
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Wonderful isn't it?
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Yeah.
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Well done.
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All right.
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So were there any individual who
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inspired your intellectual
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development and did you research
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focus align with their
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interests?
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Yeah.
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I mean, there are so many, if
I've got to think of one person,
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it's not very obvious in terms
of they might not have been a
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big part in your life directly,
but something that made a real
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impact in perception.
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And that was actually, um, Bob
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Lingard, professor Bob Lingard
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from Queensland University in
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Australia.
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Um, why did he make a big
impression?
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I went to a conference in the
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very early two thousand, maybe
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two thousand and one, something
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like that.
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Um, and I was starting my PhD
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and I was very interested, as
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I've said in teachers learning
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by talking together in an online
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environment.
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And that isn't what Bob Lingard
was talking about.
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It turned out he was the keynote
speaker.
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I had never heard of him.
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I didn't know what I was going
to find at the conference.
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I was there talking about
something from my PhD research,
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and he gave a keynote about the
research that he had conducted
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with a team, including Martin
Mills, who subsequently was the
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previous director of our center
for Teachers and Teaching
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Research here at the Institute.
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Um, and they looked at a
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fantastic, um, longitudinal A
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study of teachers and identified
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productive pedagogies.
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Developing an instrument or a
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scale, if you like, to identify
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what it is about the practice of
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teachers and their interactions
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with young people in their
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classrooms, that means that
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learners are enabled, that they
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can access the curriculum, that
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they can flourish, and that they
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can thrive.
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And it was just wonderful to
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hear the way that they had
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decided that it was possible to
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look in very systematic ways at
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what teachers do and understand
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it and describe it, and identify
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its key components, and give it
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a name that helps us to
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understand productive
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pedagogies.
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And of course, one of the most
important factors that they
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identified in really positive,
productive classrooms was the
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positive affirmation of the
young people in the room.
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Uh, inclusion, planning for
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inclusion, conducting inclusive
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practice in every day in minute,
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minute by minute interactions
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with those young people, part of
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the whole ethos in the room and
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the relationship that that had
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with teaching, with teaching
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material, with teaching content,
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um, with those kinds of tangible
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kinds of outcomes, um, that we
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all know are incredibly
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important.
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He was inspirational and he, he
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talked about schools where this
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happened more.
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He talked about teachers
learning communities or
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teachers, professional learning
communities, um, in the ways
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that teachers can together
deepen their understanding of
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productive pedagogies to lead
learning in their classrooms.
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All of this was incredibly
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powerful to me as a new
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researcher.
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Um, it was, oh, gosh, maybe
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fifteen years before I actually
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went to Australia and to New
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Zealand.
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Um, and where I met Martin Mills
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when he then came and worked
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here at the Institute of
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Education, which was, has he
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left now?
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He's left now that his role is
the one that I've inherited as
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the director for the centre for
Teachers and Teaching Research.
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So a very strange kind of circle
has turned very interconnected.
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Yeah.
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So Bob Lingard, absolutely
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wonderful, wonderful
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inspirational researcher.
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Yeah.
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And the fact that it was in line
with your PhD as well.
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Indeed.
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It's just amazing to hear.
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It made me win that far.
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Yeah.
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To Ilya again you so much, you
know, out of your comfort zone
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and you learn more.
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Indeed, learning from research
in Australia and how hugely
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important and relevant that
might be to other parts of the
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world, including our own system.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Yeah.
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Excellent.
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And that leads us to the last
question.
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What academic advice do you have
for early career researcher?
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This could be a staff or
students or both.
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I would say talk with as many
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people as you possibly can about
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your work, your aspirations, the
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difficulties that you're having,
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learn from other people's
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experiences and find those
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networks, those critical
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communication channels that that
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really are the lifeblood for new
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researchers.
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It can be a lonely experience.
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You know, it's hard being a new
researcher.
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You know, you can be on
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temporary contracts, part time
Speaker:
contracts.
Speaker:
You're not certain what you're
going to be doing next year.
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You're not certain if you're
going to be able to very easily
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continue the current research
trajectory that you're on.
Speaker:
It depends if the funding will
be there or not.
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There is a constant cycle of
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putting in applications for
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research.
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The majority of which are not
successful as we know.
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It's only a minority of
applications from funding bodies
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that are successful.
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It's hard.
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And then of course, there is a
very important and productive
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expectations around publication.
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Um, all of these things mean it
can be pressurised.
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We hope in a positive way and it
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mostly is, but working with
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others is absolutely crucial to
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navigating this.
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Yeah, I would say so.
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Networking, informal networks,
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but also consciously approaching
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and accepting invitations, going
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along to things where you think,
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oh, I'm not sure this is one
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hundred percent what I'm
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interested in.
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But when you get there, you meet
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other people and you realize the
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conversation can turn to
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something that is extremely
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constructive.
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You can learn from any research
discussion.
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So be open to joining in and
give it a go.
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And consciously find ways to
learn from the experiences of
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others and share what's
happening for you.
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Absolutely.
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And that's what we're trying to
do through this episode, you
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know, sharing your experiences
and others as well.
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And we're hoping it will be very
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helpful and inspiring to the
Speaker:
audience.
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Thank you so much.
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It's really interesting your
your academic journey.
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Um, thank you so much for
joining us today.
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It has been a pleasure to have
you here, Caroline.
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Thank you.
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Please follow the link in the
show notes to find out more
Speaker:
about Professor Caroline Daly's
work as well as discover more
Speaker:
podcasts from the EU.
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And if you like what you've
heard today, please give the
Speaker:
podcast a five star rating on
Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Speaker:
This will help us to reach more
Speaker:
listeners who may also enjoy the
Speaker:
podcast.
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I am Zeinab and thank you for
listening.
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Have a good day.
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Academia et al is brought to you
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by the IOE's Early Career
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Network and IOE Marketing and
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Communications.
Speaker:
The podcast is presented by
Zeinab El-Khateeb.
Speaker:
The theme music was composed by
Ronnie Zhu.
Speaker:
Editing by Teresa Baker of UCL
Educational Media.
Speaker:
And Jason Ilagan is the
Speaker:
executive producer of the IOE
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podcast.
Speaker:
Thanks for listening.
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