Which Green Day song helps you get to the train station on time? | Lived Experience of Dyscalculia
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Liz Herbert:Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Lived Experience of Dyscalculia podcast series. I'm Liz Herbert, an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology and Human Development at the Institute of Education.
Helen Williams:And I'm Helen Williams, I'm a researcher at the Institute of Education.
Liz Herbert:So, this podcast has been created as part of a Higher Education Innovation Fund Knowledge Exchange Research Project in collaboration with our research partners, the Dyscalculia Network. So through in-depth conversations with adults with lived experience of dyscalculia, we've been exploring how this often misunderstood and under researched specific learning difficulty shapes everyday life, education, emotions and opportunities. And in this series, we share the voices and insights of people whose experiences are too rarely heard, with the aim of raising awareness, challenging misconceptions, and better informing support for adults with dyscalculia. So welcome back. This is our second podcast in a series of three, and in today's episode, we're joined by Scott and possibly Mia.
Liz Herbert:Now Mia's a bit stuck in traffic, so, if Mia joins us, we will welcome her when she does. Today, we're going to explore the emotional dimensions of dyscalculia, look at maths anxiety and particularly the relationship between dyscalculia and well-being. Our research participants often spoke about fear, shame or frustration, all linked to mathematical tasks and how these emotions can persist long after schooling ends. So to start with, I'm gonna say a big welcome to Scott, and welcome back to Helen who's also with us on the call today. And I'm gonna ask Scott to just tell us a little bit about themselves, why they're here, and what they're currently doing.
Liz Herbert:So just as way of introduction, hello from Cardiff. Scott, how are you?
Scott:Hi. Hi, everybody. Thanks for the thanks for the amazing introduction there. That was that was great. Yeah.
Scott:I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Still trying to keep out with the rain when I'm when I'm walking my dog and all the rest of it. But, yeah, things are things are going well at the moment. Doing well.
Liz Herbert:What I'm gonna do, Scott, is, you know, Scott Scott, Helen, I and I have already met. We met at the Dyscalculia Lived Experience event that the Discalculia Network set up. So we've we even though we're in different parts of the country, well, actually, Scott and I are actually both in the same part of the country in Cardiff. We have met, and it's been really great to to talk to Scott in the past. So I'm gonna pass on to Helen, who's gonna ask Scott some questions.
Liz Herbert:And these questions all relate to the recent research that we've been doing at the Institute of Education and some of the findings that are coming out from our research, and we are going to get Scott's thoughts on some of these questions that have been emerging.
Helen Williams:Thank you. Scott, in our research, lots of the people that we interviewed reported very negative emotions regarding mathematics. So, can I ask you to start us off by saying what emotions mathematical tasks evoke in you?
Scott:Well, I mean, it's such a it's such a massive question, because what I often find is when we're talking about maths anxiety, I think most people might make the assumption of it it sort of remains in in the classroom, in a maths class, But what I've come to realize as as an adult with as an adult with dyscalculia is this the anxiety is outside of the classroom, and there's a lot of there's a lot of shame involved, which I think you've you've mentioned previously. But I think one of the main ones, and again, this comes up with the absolute fear of doing anything mathematical, was was when I was doing drama. I was in drama class in university, and I remember, like, everybody had to do these steps, and obviously there was counting involved, you know, in the steps, and then I just I just I couldn't follow the steps whatsoever. And the amount of amount of shame that came along with that because you're seeing everybody in the classroom. It's a big it was a big class of people.
Scott:It was about it was about ten ten to 15 different people, and they're all there, you know, counting along and kind of following the steps and there's me and it just sent seemed like sort of gobbledygook almost. So the main the main feelings you end up sort of feeling a bit like a what I often describe is a bit like a but like an alien really, a sort of a sort of outsider. So there's just a lot of really horrible feelings that come alongside with maths anxiety.
Helen Williams:Oh okay, you've made a couple of really interesting points there. I was particularly struck by the fact that you talked initially about how people think that it may be it remains at school and once you leave school, then the anxiety doesn't follow you. But actually, you feel that that it has given you huge shame around your your abilities, and actually you feel like an outsider sometimes. And I just wonder if we can unpick that a little bit. What do you mean by you feel like an outsider?
Helen Williams:Can you say a bit more about that?
Scott:It's well, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's hard to it's just the feeling that I've had ever since I was ever since I was younger. And and, again, I don't know if other participants have said the same thing where you can see you can see other people doing their thing almost is what I like to call it. It's not it's It's not a very technical term, but they're kind of out there, they're doing their thing, they're doing maths, they're kind of going about their lives. But then with me, it's almost because I needed that extra support with maths.
Scott:You know, I was almost separated from that group. You know, I didn't even for example, I didn't sit my maths. I didn't sit my maths GCSE. So, again, you know, because they didn't think I would be able to I would be able to to sort of to do it. And, again, you can see how how you can feel like an outsider then because there you have everybody kind of in there doing the doing the exam, and this was, you know, this was in school.
Scott:And then me not even, you know, not even attempting to it because they didn't think I could I could even do the exam in the first place. And it's just it's just little things like that really that kind of contribute to being to to being an outsider.
Helen Williams:So picking up the point that you just made, you were talking about school, and I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about your school experiences. You said that you didn't sit maths GCSE and that contributed to your feelings about being an outsider. What impact do you feel that this had on your general learning at school? How did you feel?
Scott:I mean I mean, for example, one of the one of the occasions that happened was that I, you know, I had some maths teachers in my school understood it. There was one particular maths teacher, and he he wanted to learn everything he everything about dyscalculia because I I went to an international school. I I went to an international school abroad, so everyone everyone spoke English, but it was it was in it was in France. And had of course, yeah, they had that one maths teacher that was that was really good, but then you had other maths teachers that that basically didn't think that I was gonna amount to anything, basically. Yeah.
Scott:And I mean, I even had I, you know, I even had one particular math teacher back in the day in teachers in a parent teacher evening, tell my parents that basically that I wasn't gonna be able to, you know, achieve, you know, achieve things and all this sort of stuff, that I basically essentially, what he was saying was that I'd be a a write off, essentially. And that's something that that's something that's always whenever I'm in my sort of down periods and when I'm struggling, that's always one of the thing things that sort of sticks with me. It's the things that people say. Manage It's kind of always stuck with me through learning. I mean, I'm I'm quite a high achiever.
Scott:You know, I went to university, got my degree, but there's always that sense of I've always feel like it's made me feel like some kind of some kind of impostor. You know? And, again, I I say this because when I mean, when I did my exams so that was kind of a negative point, but when I did my exams, I remember, and this is I think this is really key from a a dyscalculia perspective, is when we're doing our mock exams at the time. Now I can't tell the time. So, of course, when everybody was going into their exams and they were looking at how much time they had left for an exam and they'd looking at the clock and they'd like, right.
Scott:I've got twenty minutes to write this essay. I've got ten minutes to this question, and then I'll split five minutes at the end. Of course, I can't do any of that kind of So in my mock exams, I I remember in my mock exams basically rushing through all of the questions literally, like like almost to the point of, like like, a marathon sprint trying to, like, write as many answers down as I possibly could because I had no idea. And, obviously, then grades suffered massively, and and nobody nobody could could understand. And then I remember bringing it up with my my specialist sport teacher.
Scott:Now she was an absolute legend. She basically saved my life. And what she ended up putting is because I could read a digital I could actually read a digital clock. And what she ended up doing for me was she ended up allowing me to have a digital clock in the exam hall. And then, of course, that was a game changer then, but because I then knew I could read the digital time like I'd been reading on my phone, because I could read back to digital time, I then knew how much time I had left in my in my exams.
Scott:And I remember they even had it's brilliant now thinking about it. They even had this thing where my my specialist support teacher, she made these placards for me, and she basically every, like, half hour or or or hour or something like that, she would come up with a placard, and she'd have something written on it and be it would be something chill out, you know, you've got, you know, an hour remaining or something. And and and and that was just absolutely and my grades went up massively. So in some sense, it did have an impact on my learning from a self esteem perspective, and that's something I'm still struggling with at the moment. But then, you know, you've got these people like that support teacher that basically knew about dyscalculia.
Scott:She was dyslexic or some, and basically saved my grades, essentially. Like, I wouldn't have the grades I have now if it wasn't for that woman. I just wish I could have met her because so, yeah, you can see how it kind of has that impact on learning, you know.
Helen Williams:And that's such a simple adjustment and adaptation. It's really made a massive difference
Scott:Huge, absolutely huge.
Liz Herbert:It's really interesting what you were saying about your issues with exams and time and being able to think about time in exams was picked up in our first podcast when we talked to Rose, and she had a really similar experience. So, it's really funny that both of you have really picked up on that. So guess what? We have got Mia. Mia, Mia's travel troubles have ended, and she has been she's been able to join us now.
Liz Herbert:So I just wanted to say a big welcome, Mia. Do you want to introduce yourself quickly?
Mia:Yeah. Hello. It's really lovely to be here. Yeah. My name is Mia.
Mia:I live in Weston-super-Mare. I have dyscalculia, funnily enough. And I am also an actor, a theatre maker, musician, the list goes on. I do many things, but those are the main things. So, yeah, that's me.
Liz Herbert:Really interesting, Mia, isn't it? Actually, because our listeners will pick up that all three people that we've spoken to have all got creative professions. So it yeah. I wonder how how common that is and if that will come out in our research findings.
Helen Williams:Yeah, thank you. Mia, we're talking about maths anxiety today and Scott was just telling us all about his experiences at school. I wonder if you could maybe tell us a little bit about how doing maths, what emotions it invokes in you, and how you maybe felt about maths when you were at school.
Mia:Yeah. So, well, in school, I always say I always say to people I had a very different relationship with maths in school than I do now. When I was in school, I was absolutely terrified of doing anything mathematical, especially when it was in a subject that wasn't particularly maths, so like science, for example, or geography. Whenever we had to do maths in those subjects, I just remember really panicking, but I never really spoke about dyscalculia at school. I never really believed that it was a thing because it wasn't sort of taken well, was not not that it was taken seriously, just not many people had heard of it, not many teachers had heard of it, so I kind of just went along with that as well.
Mia:But my relationship with maths now, still very much the same. I'm I still get quite panicky when I have to do anything mathematical, but I definitely have gotten used to sort of asking people for help now because I never used to do that when I was at school. I kind of just suffered in silence. But now now that I've sort of really embraced or accepted having dyscalculia, I'm far more likely to ask for help or find help myself if if I can't if nobody else is around. So it definitely has changed, I think, since coming out of education, but I I still suffer really badly from maths anxiety.
Mia:I mean, it just changes when you're an adult from when you're a child. You know, when you're a child, it's you're learning maths in lessons, but as an adult, obviously, you know, you're paying for your bills and everything else you have to pay for as an adult and all the other stuff. It's it's it's definitely changed, but that feeling of, you know, feeling scared of maths is definitely still there, I don't I don't think it will ever go, to be honest.
Helen Williams:That's really interesting. And, Scott, would you say that's the same for you? Do you think your attitude towards maths has changed over time? Mia spoke about feeling very panicky then, and I wondered if that's an emotion that you empathise with.
Scott:I 100% absolutely do empathise with that. I mean, for for me and I like I when Mia mentioned about maths being up in in other subjects, I was that was the same with me as well. So, like, you know, lessons that I hated included D&T because, obviously, there's a lot of measurements involved with that as well, and, like, rulers and graphs. And, again, like you said about science as well, hated that as well because of, obviously, different things. But, yeah, they're pretty much pretty much the exact same feelings.
Scott:I mean, you know, I I had I had cry I mean, the the thing with me is I had sort of you know, I'd be my parents would kind of not necessarily shout at me when I was younger because they they saw that I was doing well in other subjects, but they couldn't understand why, like, maths was, like, really low compared to the other subjects. And, obviously, that's gotten better now because they understand what dyscalculia is. But, again, kinda goes back to that whole being, you know, being upset and and kind of feeling that shame again. But, yeah, that's I I I feel exactly the same the very same way. But my my relationship to maths has changed a lot now because, actually, I'm doing private tuition now.
Scott:And I found an incredible teacher, and he's been helping to get rid of the shame with maths. And he I I just feel blessed that I've actually found him because he he's just been absolutely great with me just regaining my confidence kinda thing. I I've got my my little functional skills, but I'm working I'm actually, at the moment, working towards a maths GCSE. So, yeah, it's going to take ages because I'm basically got primary school level at the moment, but he's helping me to change my relationship with maths.
Helen Williams:That's really good, and it's interesting that having that one to one support is giving you back the confidence that you felt maybe it was sort of eroded whilst you were at school. And what about you, Mia? Would you say that's also something, that lack of confidence, and is that still with you or has that changed over time?
Mia:Oh, god. Absolutely. It's still with me. And I unfortunately, I think it's because of the dyscalculia that, you know, I'm I have very low confidence in most things. I really get in my head about a lot of things.
Mia:I I always question myself if I'm good enough for things, and I think it is because of my experience with dyscalculia in school. And it's quite a shame, really. I mean, I'm trying to learn to to not feel that way because it's not true, you know. Just because you're you struggle with something doesn't mean you're not capable of doing things, you know. And the funny thing is is that out of me and my sisters, I'm the one that's best with saving money, and that's mostly because I'm too scared to spend it.
Mia:So, it's still there, but yeah, I think definitely from school, unfortunately, and it still sticks with me every single day.
Helen Williams:Okay. So, I guess my next question to you both is about how the anxiety you experience might be different from other adults' anxiety. So, as you know, many adults in The UK experience anxiety about mathematics and certainly that was found out in our research as well. All of the adults we spoke to talked about those difficulties. So I'm going to start with Scott.
Helen Williams:How is being dyscalculic? How does that impact on your anxiety maybe in a different way than other adults might say, oh, I'm no good at maths. I worry about doing maths. So what's different about being dyscalculic?
Scott:Oh, that that is that is one heck of a question. No. That's a big question. So the the thing is, what I've always said and what my what me and my parents have always said is that kind of dyscalculia, like, hides itself among thing. People say, oh, you're bad at maths, but then that's kind of like a surface level thing, and so the dyscalculia hides underneath.
Scott:Now for example I mean, I'll give you two main examples and to show how sort of dyscalculia related maths anxiety is different from perhaps normal anxiety. So the first example, again, we go back to to school. When I remember I used to walk to the bakery. We used to have a bakery when when we used to walk back and forth and all this sort of stuff. Now I remember very specifically, I would always go to that bakery.
Scott:I wouldn't go to any other bakery, and I would always go to the same bakery, and I would always order the exact same food all the time because I knew, like, that's how much it costed. Because the the amount of anxiety that would happen of me trying to spend, like, any other amount of money on anything different would be too incomprehensible for me to bear because then I'd start thinking, well, what if I had not got enough time to get back? What if it takes two long to count the numbers? Or if, you know, all these what if scenarios start playing inside of my head, and it it's just absolutely terrifying. So that's why I end up buying buying the same food and even got to the point where I remember the teachers also used to go to the same bakery.
Scott:And I remember one of my teachers turning around, and he he said to me, same thing again, Scott? And I'd like, yep. You know, ham sandwich, two donuts, and a coffee because I would order the same thing every single time just to avoid just to avoid sort of the the counting sort of thing. And then the other one is
Liz Herbert:Oh, Scott, I hope you didn't turn into a vegetarian so that you can't have that ham sandwich.
Scott:Well, you thankfully, I thankfully, I didn't. I I was I it would be just be the same thing every single time. And that that is just pure fear from from not not wanting to do not wanting to even though I could spend money on my card, still, it took me ages to get to that point where I could use my card in the first case because was so terrified of using it. And then the other one, another quick example of how it's different is when I would take the train. So I would walk to get the train.
Scott:And, yeah, basically, I would because I didn't know how much time I had to get from my school to the train station, I would literally be in, like, almost a sprint, bordering on a sprint to get to that train station. And the only way to quell that particular anxiety from a time perspective was that, basically, I would use songs as a way of counting the time. So I love I love the band Green Day. So I know Green Day have a song, and it's it's around nine minutes long. And then I knew because that song because that song is nine minutes, it would take me nine minutes, you know, to a full song to get to the train station.
Scott:So it is it is different from normal level of mass anxiety, and people, you know, they they they sort of they go around and do it anyway. They're like, oh, I don't like doing this, or, you know, it's it's kind of, oh, I'll do it. But with me, it I will avoid it if I can when I was younger at all costs. So that's how it's it's hard to explain, but that's what I would say.
Helen Williams:They're really good examples. What about you, Mia? What strategies have you found to lessen that maths anxiety and how is it different for you from other adults that maybe say, oh, I'm a bit anxious about maths?
Mia:So, I to talk about how it's different from other adults first. Funnily enough, a few months ago, my grandpa, and he's 92 years old, and he was an accountant, funnily enough. I don't know how I got dyscalculia after that, but yeah. So he's an accountant, and I remember him saying to me, yeah. I I feel like I've I've got a little bit of dyscalculia.
Mia:And we all looked at him like, how on earth would you you know, you're an accountant. And basically, he said, when he was at school, he found maths really scary because of the way it was taught. And I think that actually a lot of adults have been through something very similar. I'm not saying it's the teach the teacher that was scary, but I think I I've always thought with maths, you know, there's always a definite answer with maths that you have to get. You have to get the right answer.
Mia:Whereas, I always found that in English, especially English language, or English literacy, that you you kind of it's more opinionated, which is why I always was quite good at English, but with maths, it's like you have to get the answer right. And I think a lot of people, you know, in go back to that that version of themselves when they were younger and getting that question wrong and whether that meant that they got shouted at by a teacher, or whether they felt embarrassed in that moment. I think that's why a lot of people or could be one of the reasons why people get such anxiety towards maths, because they don't wanna get it wrong. It's embarrassing. You know?
Mia:I guess some of the, like, strategies that I use I mean, like I said earlier, I I do get help quite a lot from my my partner or or my mom, who's always my mom has always supported me throughout, you know, school and ever since I got diagnosed. I rely heavily on apps on my phone. So a calculator, I will always use calculator, but even then, I'll still get it wrong because, you know, there's just the dyscalculia in me, but I use calculator. I I know there is now a Dyscalculator, quite a a new thing that's come out. So I need to download that because that'd be really helpful for me.
Mia:And also, I
Mia:Do you know what? Sometimes waking up in the morning, I used to be really bad at it, but I have like a I can't even remember the name of the app now, but I have the special app on my phone that helps me wake up in the it's really weird. I have to try and find it at the moment, but it's a really weird app, but it's like it's not like your usual alarm from your phone, it's like
Mia:a specific app.
Mia:Yeah. I'll and find it, like
Helen Williams:Does it? It wakes you up in stages or?
Mia:Yeah. It wakes you up in stages,
Mia:but not in like a a really sort of harsh way, because I I hate that, you know, it wakes me up in a calm way, but funnily enough, my my body sort of has adjusted to it now, so that I wake up sometimes before my alarm, which is amazing, you know, because when I was younger, I had no concept of time, but I feel like I have a lot more concept of time now, now that I'm older, and I've sort of learnt to cope, you know, in my own way.
Helen Williams:Okay. So, you've learnt you've got coping strategies, so you're using sort of apps on your phone, you've got coping strategies, and you've got a supportive family friends that that can help you. And what about you, Scott? Would you say that's the same for you and have family and friends lessened your anxiety about maths?
Scott:I mean, well, I mean, obviously we were talking just now about there used to be a lot of shouting when I was younger between me and my parents, not always related to maths because they couldn't understand why maths was a bigger struggle as it was. But now, thankfully, they're most supportive people ever, and they're they're always always fighting my corner. I specifically and this is a good example. I just wanted to I don't know if I'm waffling, but I wanted to give an example of kind of my parents fighting for me. I remember I was in a particular job.
Scott:I think it was a, like, a sort of a paralegal type thing. And anyway, it goes back it circles on to what you were saying about with the adults and sort of hiding dyscalculia kind of thing. And I remember telling my my employer, my boss about dyscalculia, and I I remember them saying to me, that particular person, oh, you know, well, my my, you know, four year old four year old son can five year old son can do it, you know, and then they would basically belittle me, essentially, you know, and talk about it. If you're like, oh, I can't you you should be able to do it, basically, which I viewed my whole life is, you know, with my six my seven year old son does this and basically give me, like talk down to me. And I remember my my my dad coming in and trying to educate my boss, because I was so upset that they I was so upset that they were treating me that way, and then my dad coming in and actually fighting my corner and being, love you know, dyscalculia is a real thing.
Scott:You know? He's not he's not making it up sort of thing, which I I sometimes get, but and that's just a really good example of of how how my family have helped me. But then also, I've got a best friend from uni, and I've talked to him about dyscalculia, my struggles and everything all the time, and he's just the most supportive friend I could have ever asked for. So, yeah, definitely a lot better now. I've got some really good supportive network around me at the moment.
Helen Williams:Okay. That's so important, isn't it? And I'm really interested in the fact that your employer didn't understand about dyscalculia. And we talked again about this with Rose in our previous podcast, which listeners may have heard. I wondered, Mia, whether you've had something similar.
Helen Williams:Have there been issues with employers in the past? I think you're self employed now, is that right?
Mia:Yeah. So I am self employed now, but I yeah. I've I've had quite a few instances, particularly when I was a lot younger, when I didn't really stick up for myself very much. I think one of the first jobs I was in, we had to fill in a timesheet for our hours, so how many hours we did. We filled in a timesheet, and then we had to add it all up at the end.
Mia:So you'd, you know, you do a week, and then you'd add up how many hours you did. And obviously, you know, for someone like me, that's really difficult and I would always get it wrong, but I was just too embarrassed to say anything. It was it was embarrassing for me to, you know, and there was also, again, sort of Scott mentioned that fear of, like, telling people, you know, you've got dyscalculia because people won't understand it. So, I remember once that happened where I filled it in wrong and my boss was really angry that that I did that, and I was so ashamed, you know, it was really embarrassing. And I think it happened again in another job as well, where they got really angry with me, and and I just wish I had said in the moment, but I I I do struggle with these things.
Mia:I have dyscalculia. I wish I had said that, but I didn't. But I I know that if I had, they might not have understood it, but it is a reason, you know, and I'm hoping that, you know, nowadays well, I say nowadays, you know, I'm hoping that in the future, more employers will be understandable about these things, you know, and and understand that, you know, sometimes people just need help, and this is a real issue that people have, you know, a real condition that people have. So, yeah, it it I've definitely struggled with that with employers in the past and I'm so glad I work for myself now, so I don't have to necessarily deal with that.
Liz Herbert:Have either of you ever kind of struggled with mental health and well-being issues that you think have have have kind of come from your challenges with dyscalculia? Because I do think this this is probably happening a lot and and we don't know a lot about it.
Scott:I mean, for me, I've been in some bad places. I'm not going to beat around the bush and say that everything's been hunky dory. You know? Mean, for me, on a personal level, it's it's been about self esteem and the lack of self esteem, and actually, when I've had opportunities that have obviously, I I got bullied in school, which obviously didn't particularly help matters, got bullied when I was younger.
Scott:But then my whole battle at the moment has been trying to sort of to rebuild my self esteem because I felt that I because of this whole maths thing and not being like that whole feeling of I'm not like everyone I'm not like everyone else, therefore, I am a failure. You you know, you're kind of stuck there, and and now I'm going to the gym now, and I'm building it back up and building the evidence that I can do things, but, you know, this sort of lack of self esteem has led to, you know, sort of bad levels of anxiety, which I've only rediscovered since graduating uni because I was too proud to the thing is, I was so proud not to accept any help in uni, but because I I was so proud of, like, of of doing things on my own. I've always done stuff on my own. I don't need anybody's help. You know, and I only accepted the help, like, in the third year of Uni.
Scott:And, basically, they were saying that if I had help earlier, then I would have had well, I would have had even better, you know, of the grade. But it's that whole thing of, no, I'm gonna I'm stubborn, I'm gonna do this all by myself because nobody's ever believed in me, so I'm gonna do it on my own, and and that's kind of led to almost a burn a burned out phase, and I'm just trying to recover from that, you know? It is a shame. It is quite sad, but the at least now I'm going to the gym now, and I'm rebuilding my self esteem, you know, one gym session one day at a time with my trainer, so it's been a bit of a long struggle really.
Helen Williams:And what about you, Mia? Have you had difficulties with self esteem, if you wouldn't mind sharing with us?
Mia:Yeah, absolutely. I think I I did mention earlier that, you know, dyscalculia, I think, is the reason well, not dyscalculia is the reason, but my experience of dyscalculia at school is probably the reason why I have such low self esteem. It it just wasn't sort of taken very seriously. There wasn't enough people that knew about it, and I think that really made me believe that it wasn't real, you know, that it maybe I just wasn't very clever, and that sort of I've let that define me for quite a few years, and it still does get to me sometimes. And and also, when I can't well, when I struggle to do anything mathematical, I still do find that kind of embarrassing if it's in front of other people, and I do find that really frustrating, And it it makes me wish that I could just, you know, be a bit more normal and do these things.
Mia:But, actually, I always I've always said, if I didn't have dyscalculia, I don't think I'd be a very creative person because I think having dyscalculia has made me become this creative person because what I've lacked in my ability to do maths, I've gained in my ability to be creative. So, actually, I'm really thankful to have dyscalculia and also not being able to do it is it it's made me I I have a show called I don't have a maths GCSE, which is a solo show that I made in 2023. I made that show based off my experience with dyscalculia, and a lot of people have really related to it, and it's made me be so open about my struggles of maths in a way that I don't think I would have been without it. So there's a big part of me that's so thankful to have dyscalculia, funnily enough.
Liz Herbert:Is that something we can see, Mia? Can can we share that in our podcast notes? Or is it was it a live show?
Mia:It was a live performance, yeah. Yeah. I'm not currently touring it. I was touring it last year, but I'm not doing it this year, but I'm hoping to bring it back at some point.
Scott:I'd I'd like I'd like I just add as just to add to what Mia said there. I'm also, like, super creative as well, so I'm I play drums. I'm a drummer. I'm a poet as well, I write poetry. I'm a short story writer and practicing guitarist as well, which is all self taught.
Liz Herbert:Do do you wanna give us can we give a shout out to your band, Scott?
Scott:I'm not currently in the band at the moment, but I am yeah. Am playing, but I just want I just wanted thought it was important to mention, you know, because I it was about it was a bit morbid what I said before. But, yeah, when you said about the creativity, like, you know, it's the same thing. So
Liz Herbert:No. It's you're both inspirational. I mean, telling us about you know, honestly, it's it's this listening to this podcast for younger people that, you know, may be still at school, you know, I really hope it gives some inspiration. And and hearing your stories is just so important for for people who might be struggling with this journey at the moment. So
Helen Williams:yes, I agree. And I think, you know, you've both talked about having shame and anger and feelings of frustration and having that low self esteem, being maybe too proud to accept help, maybe not wanting to accept that there was something not quite right with your your mathematical learning. But both of you have shown such resilience and such determination and you've made, you know, a real success out of your lives. And I think that's a really inspirational message to end on really that that, you know, having dyscalculia doesn't define you. And I think, Mia, you particularly, you know, referenced that and said, you know, you sort of moved beyond it now.
Helen Williams:So, think that's a brilliant place for us to end on. I'm going to hand back to Liz now just to close this podcast.
Liz Herbert:Yeah. Well, I just wanted to say a really heartfelt thank you to to Mia and Scott. You you've just been awesome. I know I know when I walk to the station now, I'll be thinking about Scott on his nine minute journey, listening to Green Day, getting in there on time, so I might try try that when I'm gonna be late for a train. So thank you both.
Liz Herbert:I'd like to thank MarComms, IOE MarComms, for helping us out. So I'd like to thank Helen as well for her fantastic questions, and let you know that we are gonna have a third podcast that we hope you'll join us in next. So if you'd like to know more, check out the links from the episode notes. And if you've enjoyed this episode, do check out more podcast from the IOE, the Institute of Education. So just search IOE Insights and check out the Dyscalculia Network on LinkedIn as well.
Liz Herbert:They have been our brilliant research partners, and that's how we met people like Scott and Mia. And a quick favour before you go, if you're listening on Apple or Spotify, we'd really appreciate it if you could give the IOE Insights podcast a rating. Ob obviously, we'd love five stars, but anything would be nice. And that will help us to reach more people who may be interested in hearing about the Institute of Education. So I've been Liz Herbert.
Helen Williams:I'm Helen Williams.
Liz Herbert:And thank you for listening, and thanks again, Scott, Mia, and the IOE. And do check out our LinkedIn profiles if you want to find out more about our research. Thank you. Bye bye.
IOE announcer:Thanks for listening. Search IOE insights for more podcasts from the IOE.
